Alice 앨리스 [2020]

[40somethingahjumma]

Episode 15 suffers a little from a common Kdrama malaise of stagey showdown. It didn't have as much of an impact as it should have. Although the actors all did remarkably well in capturing the emotions of the moment. The actors essentially saved the day.

 

I thought Episode 15 was fine as far as the family side of things were done. This is the story that the show really wanted to tell. The scenes between Tae-yi and her adoptive mother. Min-hyuk and Jin-gyeom. Jin-gyeom and Do-yeon. Tae-yi and Jin-gyeom. Everyone wants to be family for Jin-gyeom. Everyone wants the best for him. Regrettably though,  I just don't think we're going to get any kind of satisfactory answer regarding the temporal mechanics. I suppose we have to take Seok O-won's thesis for granted that time travel creates paradoxes which lead to confusion and chaos. People have memories, feelings and inclinations that are not so easily detached from the time travelling equation. Your selves are part of you. Past, present and future finally coming together.  I thought it was especially poignant to have Min-hyuk replay that last scene with his Tae-yi in his mind. All his regrets about the woman he loved and the son he only just recently found out about encapsulated in that "if only I had" moment as he lay on the floor dying. If only he had been as dedicated to his family as he had been to Alice. Alice had destroyed them all. All their hopes, dreams and relationships.

 

I also loved his brief moments with Do-yeon. Watching them I grieved about what the show could have been. What she could have been to him. It didn't have to be romantic as she said but ultimately what she really wanted was to be a bigger part of his life.

 

As if there wasn't enough melodrama already in the show, Park Jin-gyeom had to witness the death of his mother for the fourth time. The show wants so desperately to be egregious about the tragedy that was inflicted on this broken family and sacrifices any kind of logic and clarity on the time travel to achieve this.  Professor Yoon Tae-yi, falling prey to quantum entanglement became Mother Yoon Tae-yi at that precise moment when father, mother and son were esoterically or inexplicably reunited in the flesh for one brief moment. Why? So that JG will be driven to do what TY, MH couldn't do? To bring down the entire edifice and save them all so that all things can go back to what they should have been?

 

The parallel universe notion was probably always a blind perhaps so that the melodrama between Tae-yi and JG could be played out. It's all about family at the end of the day and all the other stuff... apparently is just window dressing.

 

So yes, it seems like the show is going for a hard reset. It is up to JG to save his family.

 

[mademoiselle]

Episode 15 for me is a huge mess, in its editing and/or filming. It felt like a lot of things were cut and joint together that what was shown doesn't flow coherently e.g. Jin Gyeom was drugged and how did he ended up coming to Alice on his own? For someone who has never been to Alice, how did he find where that horrendous blood bath showdown location is?

 

I hated how that semi-final showdown of shooting was executed. It's bad directing. It's aimed to be dramatic but I felt absolutely nothing emotionally. It could definitely had been done better than this. This show is pre-produced, surely there's no need to rush or executing so poorly. The whole thing happening in Alice makes no sense for me. Did Alice send everyone home? Why is there no one there all of a sudden? What about the security system?

 

I've given up trying to fully understand the concept behind the time-travelling but that doesn't mean I don't want to understand what I'm watching. However, what's been played out so far in episode 15 is nothing but confusing. I already guessed "creation" could either be "time-travelling" or "Jin Gyeom" and it sure took them long enough to discover it. I think the most I don't understand is how the timeline works anymore. Is it because The One Jin Gyeom was time-travelling to all parallel universes and tried to stop his loved ones from being killed that's why this Evil Jin Gyeom had the memory that someone tried to kill him?

 

One of the most confusing bit for me is how is it that all this characters we knew (who started all of this) came from 2050 instead where it seems their original selves should be from the past...? I don't think I'll get an answer in the finale after seeing how badly edited Episode 15 is.

 

BTS

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by mademoiselle

[gilaswan]

 

Just done watching ep15, and good grief. What a bloodbath. Just how many characters gave up their lives in this one episode and to what end again? And how many times did Taeyi die in Jingyeom's arms from the start of the series to this point? Sheesh.

 

Agreed that as far as the story goes, nothing's helped in unraveling the mess of time travel created within this show itself. Like you, @40somethingahjumma, I tend to understand the multiverse like how it was presented in Train and King:EM, but there are theories out there that also suggest parallel worlds and multiple selves with no differences at all, and this seems to be what they're trying to present here. Yet the story telling doesn't seem to be keeping very well within these chosen parameters and we're left with a very confusing mess. And if the explanation is just, "See? I told you so - time travel in any form results in a mess," then that's just poor storytelling, and as @mademoisellepointed out - poor directing. 
 

What I'm taking away from this penultimate episode is just this - Time will continue to move regardless of actors within its continuum, regardless of dimension. Actions will also continue to play out, regardless of countless attempts to redirect them. And if everything is preordained before all worlds were created, then there is no real agency in anyone. Any attempt to change the realities will still result in all iterations of the self to seek resolution for conflict by collapsing them all into a single frame. What then is the story they really want to tell then?

 

Now, where is Detective Buff?

[bluepebbles]

@gilaswan @mademoiselle @40somethingahjumma

 

Thanks for the insights/mini recap because honestly I stopped watching this drama midway after the hints of love arc between Taeyi and Jingyeom which is at the end is not necessary on the entire story telling. I was wondering how the rules of time travel and parallel universe will play out in the course of the story but I guess it did not meet the expectation we have as what was defined to be a sci-fi genre.

 

Spoiler

And to compare notes with previous kdramas i watched with similar themes , Queen In Hyun, Nine Times Travel, Life of Mars and Hit the Top, I made my expectations higher on this one because the resources are more advanced for example CG editing etc. .

 

The potential that Taeyi and Minhyuk's family story going along with their son Jingyeom 's time travelling capability was there. It just lost somewhere when there were multiple deaths and seems like filler scenes in each episodes.

 

I just have to wait for the ending tonight if it really worthy for me to continue watching. 

[bluepebbles]

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

[im0202]

@bluepebbles I’m so scared to watch ep 16 now lol

Agree with above, Ep 15 was quite a mess with people dying left and right. The drama did go downhill for me as well after a pretty solid first 4(?) episodes. But time-travelling is indeed a difficult genre to nail. I couldn’t keep up with the show’s logic in the second half. Just feel like it’s a waste because I felt this drama had so much potential after a good start.

[bluepebbles]

@im0202 , my concern about the ending too is 

 

Spoiler

Our daddeh MinHyuk ! 

 

 

 

[mademoiselle]

I have finished episode 16. I think I need some time to think about this. Or I should just forget it altogether. What a complete mess. Granted time travelling is never an easy topic/subject and there are a lot of possibilities; however, why is it that no K-writer can provide a good closure to any time travelling ideas/concepts they themselves come up with? If you are a writer, don't you already have an overview idea, a blue print of how you want cause, effect and result be?

 

Alice was soooo good in the beginning. SO MUCH POTENTIAL. Now what is left are unexplainable loopholes and mess. I'm becoming more and more skeptical of any kdramas being able to give me a genuinely good and reasonable time-travelling fantasy drama. Every single one I watched introduces the idea, the concept, but never able fully explain the "how" or the "why". Ugh, it's so frustrating. I generally still enjoy it, but Alice at this moment I'd say had the worst ending from the time travelling aspect.

 

Spoiler

If reset means all time-travellers will disappear, that should mean the first time traveller who stole the prophecy book and married Professor Kang Dong Shik should disappear or return to the original timeline. This would also mean Tae Yi (Omma), Tae Yi (Professor) and Jin Gyeom are all part of the reset and should disappear too.

 

What I see here isn't a reset but just a change in events. After watching his mother died for like the Nth time (5 I think), Jin Gyeom finally change the future. But how did Professor Yoon Tae Yi remember Jin Gyeom is really beyond my intellectual ability.

 

Whether or not we're dealing with parallel universe or multiverse, that's also not confirmed. With the way this show ended with Tae Yi remembering everything, it seems to suggest we're not dealing with multiverses, but one single straight timeline. Therefore, changing the past changed the future hence Old and Original Jin Gyeom disappeared as the future is being re-written. Even with this it still doesn't explain how Professor Tae Yi can have the original memory.

 

Ok, I don't want to waste my brain cells anymore. I'm off to watch something funny, like Start Up! :P

Edited October 25, 2020 by mademoiselle

[40somethingahjumma]

What a nonsensical rubbishy ending! What kind of ridiculous reset is that? 

Where's the logic? Okay, on some level I can understand Tae-yi existing. But Jin-gyeom shouldn't. It's ludicrous. Neither should have memories of each other. But because they're the leads they have to appear together at the end so we can get our schmaltzy ending. *sarcasm* 

 

It's so random.

 

If there's anybody that Tae-yi should be meeting at the end of the  reset at the end of the show, it should be Min-hyuk. For the first time. 

 

What kind of storytelling is this when a  show constantly breaks its own rules so it can preach about mother's love?  So what happened to rule that time travellers disappear?

 

Parallel universes one minute, causal loops the next. They don't mesh well... Writers!

 

What an utter waste of so much potential. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2020 by 40somethingahjumma

[im0202]

6 hours ago, mademoiselle said:

Alice was soooo good in the beginning. SO MUCH POTENTIAL. Now what is left are unexplainable loopholes and mess.

It's really kind of sad.

The drama just broke its own rules and logic too many times. I just couldn't follow it once the bulk of the time-travelling started.

Compared to Avengers Endgame where I felt time-travelling and its ramifications were explained pretty well compared to some other dramas/movies, Alice was... too confusing and didn't make sense. Maybe the writer also got confused...

 

I was really excited for this since it's Joowon's comeback drama after his enlistment. Hope he picks a better project next.

Edited October 25, 2020 by im0202

[mademoiselle]

3 hours ago, im0202 said:

It's really kind of sad.

The drama just broke its own rules and logic too many times. I just couldn't follow it once the bulk of the time-travelling started.

Compared to Avengers Endgame where I felt time-travelling and its ramifications were explained pretty well compared to some other dramas/movies, Alice was... too confusing and didn't make sense. Maybe the writer also got confused...

 

I was really excited for this since it's Joowon's comeback drama after his enlistment. Hope he picks a better project next.

I am sad. I'm usually the kind that can enjoy the process of watching a show even though the finale might be unsatisfactory however Alice just top the chart for ruining the process as well, just these last 2 episodes - utter nonsense, seriously. Also I actually liked Joo Won and his Jin Gyeom character and everybody else in this show. Sigh.

 

You know how sometimes writer goes for a post drama interview? If you come across it, would you be able to share if she/he explain what in the world happen with the finale or the concept of time travelling? Song Jae Jung did that for Memories of the Alhambra and I appreciated that she clarified (and confirmed) some things that the show didn't get to.

[im0202]

27 minutes ago, mademoiselle said:

You know how sometimes writer goes for a post drama interview? If you come across it, would you be able to share if she/he explain what in the world happen with the finale or the concept of time travelling?

Lol I don't even think I want to hear any explanation. The ending was just that bad 

29 minutes ago, mademoiselle said:

Also I actually liked Joo Won and his Jin Gyeom character and everybody else in this show.

Same. The characters were actually quite likeable. I enjoyed all the family bonding scenes and also the JG/DY scenes. Too bad DY character was shelved a bit at the end. I'm mad we didn't get any father/son bonding between JG and MH 

[mademoiselle]

1 hour ago, im0202 said:

I enjoyed all the family bonding scenes and also the JG/DY scenes. Too bad DY character was shelved a bit at the end. I'm mad we didn't get any father/son bonding between JG and MH

Same! I remember being so entertained by Do Yeon nagging Jin Gyeom, Do Yeon being protective of Jin Gyeom or Do Yeon fighting with Tae Yi. She was a lovely character and she should be the one being with Jin Gyeom at the end (coz what's with that "I don't know how I feel about you, but I know at this moment I don't want you hurt"...something like that. It meant she is important to Jin Gyeom too and hinted at the possible romance in future) and then we get a stupid ending just Jin Gyeom with Tae Yi...

 

I also love Ahjussi and Jin Gyeom's family line. And yes to Min Hyuk and Jin Gyeom. That "moment" was just glossed over. It didn't even explained how Jin Gyeom found out Min Hyuk was his bio Dad. SMH.

[mademoiselle]

BTS

 

[gilaswan]

I too finally watched Ep 16, cos well, why the heck. I wanted to see how badly it would end. And yknow what, @mademoiselle? I’d say forget it. Not worth the brain cells. Like you ladies @im0202 @40somethingahjumma have said it, the show has broken its own rules until their explanation for the mess they created was that, well, that’s what time travel is - messy. Like, duh. 

 

The ending was just cringey. What were they still trying to do? Force a love line between Jingyeom and Taeyi? Wrong type of schmaltz there! And I agree with you, @40somethingahjumma- if anyone needed a reset, it should’ve been Minhyuk. What role did he really ultimately have in this entire story? The one who spawns the ultimate time traveller?? Wasted character. How could Jingyeom survive in another form with déjà vu memories? 

 

I think this year in Kdramaland, the only one that managed to make some good sense of time travel was Train. Alice and King:EM are contenders for the messiest time travel endings ever. 

[mademoiselle]

@gilaswan Yes I'll take your advice (and I'm now preoccupied with other dramas).

 

BTS

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by mademoiselle

[40somethingahjumma]

With The King: Eternal Monarch, I could barely cope with 4 episodes because it was clear that the writer had no clue from Episode 2 onwards how to write a proper sci-fi show. Or what people would actually do in one. Everything felt artificial, confected and contrived about it. LMH's character made absolutely no sense to me. I sensed all the warning signs very early so there was no investment from me in its outcomes.

 

But Alice... was different. It had a really good start and it looked like the production team wanted to make a good sci-fi show with a talented cast. The first six episodes was top-notch telly. But the second half almost felt like a completely different drama. The exploration of Alice which was one of the most interesting aspects of the show came to a screeching halt and then it was all about TY and JG. Characters like Do-yeon, Min-hyuk and Det Kim were shoved to the sidelines and at times all they literally did was stand around like props in a scene with the odd word or sentence coming out of their mouths. I really felt for Min-hyuk the whole time even more than JG and to be honest I was rooting much harder for him. I loved the character and I loved what Kwak Si-yang did with it. If there's one good thing to come out of this, it's that KSY came to my attention. And I have a thing for men with mellifluous vocals.

 

On top of that show's use of the notion of parallel universes became weird and inconsistent. I would have thought alternate timeline would be the better term for what they were doing.

 

The show didn't really need a romance. The friendships and familial dynamic were really good. Honestly all the time that was wasted (IMO) between JG and TY playing house could have been better directed towards TY's adoptive family and JG making peace with MH. On hindsight, the show was pretty brutal to MH. He paid and paid for his mistakes. The whole angle about Mother's love though was so ridiculously overdone to the point of obsession. It was Groundhog Day gone mad. Not to mention repetitive. You have to wonder what was in the water they were drinking when they made those decisions.

 

Now that I've calmed down and given it a bit of thought (I've been ranting about the ending on different platforms since Sunday), it seems to me that they suddenly pulled out a weak reincarnation card to bring back JG from oblivion... but of course that's just my speculation. The show gives no clear explanation why JG should be the architect not Min-hyuk. By rights, TY shouldn't even remember anything except that somebody doesn't want her to start the time travel thing again. But that means now that we're no longer in sci-fi territory but more in the realm of the esoteric or supernatural. 

 

The only reason why I am disappointed is because I cared about Alice and believed in its potential. It wasn't a terrible drama but I lament about what it could have been.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by 40somethingahjumma

[mademoiselle]

There are still some good bits... now I regret a little deleting the episodes I downloaded (crap!)

I love this one from the BTS. They were rehearsing and Kim Hee Sun as Tae Yi needed to stop Jin Gyeom and she points at Kwak Si Yang saying, "Appa" and then herself, "Omma"... and the everyone laughs!

Ahhhh well... I think I'll eventually forget the little regrets too...

source: Untitled

 

[gilaswan]

1 hour ago, 40somethingahjumma said:

It was Groundhog Day gone mad.

OMG. This. Hahahaha... It was absolutely this. While watching Taeyi die for the nth time, I was sitting there wondering how many times the poor actress had to put on the same garb with the same makeup, and going “oof! He has killed me!”

 

King:EM was absolute rubbish. You’re right. It was rubbish from early on and I’m no fan of Lee Minho so I lost interest early there too. But yes, Alice had a lot more promise. Until the writer wrote it into utter confusion. Like Tenet. I’ll bet the actors also saw no logic to what was going on. The thing about sci-fi, especially stories about time travel and the multiverse, is that you need to have a very clear concept of the trajectory of the story. The Korean way of “writing it as you shoot” cannot work for something like this. And this idea about a hard reset? I’m not sure it would’ve worked. I might have liked it better if they had made Minhyuk’s wishful replay of “what if” the ending instead. 

[abs-oluteM]

We have a review of the drama by @40somethingahjumma here! Check it out